Thoughts on Manny Machado’s left hand injury, and revisiting the Miley-Miranda deal

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• if the pirates slid into a Boston third baseman like that you would have seen a brawl. just goes to show you how classy the Orioles team is.

  • You're 100% correct. This team does have class.

  • Did think it was interesting there was no ill feelings. Bad slide. But not intentional.

    • Buck as much as said that too. I thought his comments were conveniently worded to take a little bit of a jab at Boston over their level of butt-hurt. Rumor is the Boston media was calling it karma or something for Manny. They just can't let it die.

• Manny Machado.

  Obviously the poor throw to 1st base wasn't caused by a sore left hand. What did cause it in my opinion, was Machado's penchant for showboat throws where he fails to set his feet. Watch the replay .. he had PLENTY of time to set. Though he normally gets away with the "running throw", it more than likely cost the team 2 runs last night. I admit Manny can make plays that even the sainted Brooks Robinson probably couldn't have, but his lackadaisical play may ultimately prevent him from being what he could be. His fielding percentage will never approach Brooks'. Platinum glove? Hmmmmmmm ... keep this up and he may have seen his last.

  Dare I bundle this type play/attitude with what I said about his maturity level last week? Some around here call it "flair". I call it being a kid and not respecting the game as he should.

  All that being said, get well soon Manny!!

  • Or maybe he was in considerable pain which affected his play overall?

    I cannot understand why so many fans seems intent on vilifying him.

    • Pain-shmain. He doesn't throw with his left hand Stacey. He managed to catch it with his injured hand didn't he? It was an easy play and Mr. perfect didn't make it.

      And I'm not vilifying him. I've been watching the O's since 1969, and he is unquestionably the most physically gifted athlete this franchise has ever had, but being the best is not all about physical talent. In my eye, he's wasting, if not maximizing all that talent. He could be so, SO much better than he is if he put's his mind to it. Making nonchalant plays, not running balls out, being buddy buddy with opposing players IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME is going to bite him in his Hall of Fame-wannbe butt some day. If he wants to be in the Mike Trount/Bryce Harper conversation (and it's obvious he thinks he already is), he needs to tighten up his act a bit. A sub-.280 lifetime batting average isn't cutting it.

      • I forgot that old men who have been watching the Orioles since the 1960s have the monopoly on knowing how real baseball is played and what kind of pain players can and cannot perform perfectly through, not to mention the mindset of talented players. It must be nice to be so enlightened.

        • Old man? Monopoly on knowing about 'real' baseball? Stacey, I meant on offense. Why get personal? I certainly meant no offense.

          Perhaps, instead of attacking my age and gender, this forum would be better served by you explaining to as to just how a left hand injury affects his right throwing hand?

        • I'm not Stacey, but I can easily see ways in which pain in one hand affects the throw with the other - perhaps the transfer from glove to throwing hand wasn't as good as it should be? Or perhaps, catching the ball with a painful hand distracted him and made him throw off target? There are all sorts of ways the injury could have affected the throw.

          Also, batting average is far from the be-all and end-all of baseball stats - as others have pointed out, Machado's pretty great defensively (even if he isn't perfect). Besides, a .278 career BA is nothing to sneer at.

      • I am really tired of these asinine comments. No fielder in the history of the game makes every throw. Everything happens way faster in real life than you see it on camera. Players are going to make mistakes. Manny will have a lower fielding percentage than a lot of players, because he has the biggest range In history. You complain about hi m mishandling balls he never should have had a play on. Offense isn't everything, and his defense is way better than Trout or Harper.

        • Now SEE STACEY ... Subzero makes a decent argument.

      • Boog, I'm still not understanding your obsession with Manny being "buddy buddy" with opposing players. Everyone does that. When a runner gets on base, it's pretty common to see him chatting it up with the first baseman, second baseman, etc. Opposing players fraternize all the time.

        Contrary to popular belief, most players don't hold deep-seeded resentment and hatred for the players on the other team. They want to beat each other, sure, but they don't treat their opponents as if they have rabies and must be avoided at all costs. Nor should they.

        I'm also uncomfortable with the suggestion that Manny isn't "putting his mind to it." He's an elite player who has reached the highest level of his sport and has excelled. Of course he's putting his mind to it. You need to have incredible mental toughness to succeed at the major league level the way he and other great players have.

        • Does that include leterally "man-hugging an opponent" just after he reached 3rd base safely? Maybe Stacey's right .. I must be an old curmudgeon.

        • I do agree that hugging opposing players is kinda weird. But at the same time, I .can put up with the qwirks for the defense

        • Watching Manny Machado play third base is one of the greatest things about watching baseball day to day, in my opinion. He doesn't look lazy or entitled to me, he looks like a rare talent who clearly has worked his entire life to get where he is. I think it's easy to accuse players of not trying as hard when they make playing at the highest level look so easy because we take it for granted how amazing it is what we are watching.

          As for being buddy buddy with other players, wearing flashy sneakers and jewelry, etc., that's just a generational and a cultural difference. Just because it's different doesn't mean that it's bad. I wish more people could respect that.

        • That's just it Paul, Manny isn't "great" yet. He SHOULD BE ... but last I checked, his lifetime average was below .280 and currently falling. That's NOT great. I WANT him to be great .. heck everyone around here want's him to be.

          This morning, I was simply pointing out how he cost the team 2 runs last night with his fundamentally unsound throwing technique, which he repeats time and time again. Let's put some mustard on the hotdog. Oh ... "Flair" ...

          Why is it that nobody seems to mention these things about this guy? He could be Brooks an d Frank Robinson wrapped up in one body. I don't see it happening. I know he's only 25, but he's been in the league for 5 years now ... when will we see it?

        • Boog - Machado is 24 years old and has finished top 10 in MVP voting three times. All three years that he's played a full season so far he has finished with a WAR >6, and 6+ WAR is considered an MVP-level season.

          Nobody disputes that he is having a really tough year so far. It's frustrating for everyone, I'd imagine most especially him. But he is great. He has been great.

        • Boog, I've definitely noticed opposing players hug each other before. It's not an everyday occurrence, but I don't think it's an everyday occurrence with Manny, either.

          And again, I don't see how hugging players is relevant. It's not like Manny is intentionally tanking his at-bats because he doesn't want to get a hit against a guy he hugged.

        • Stacey. Manny is very, very, very good. But great? He SHOULD BE ... I agree, Top 10 MVP voting 3 times? Tell me, how does that compare to Trout & Harper? How does that compare to another AL 3rd baseman Josh Donaldson? Heck, he's not even the top 3rd baseman in the American League for crying out loud!

          Great is 16 straight gold gloves, great is a 30-30-.300 guy. Great doesn't pout. Great runs ground balls out and respects the game. Great is portrayed by having a statue in center field. Great is a HOF'er. I can't see Hall of Fame or statue being erected for this kid yet. Not the way he carries himself or plays the game. And this has absolutely nothing to do with chains, orange shoes or a generational divide. (Heck I LOVE high socks .. these guys should be MADE to wear them that way .. old timey-like) This has all to do with mannerisms, body language, and a general professionalism that truly GREAT players have. Trout .. Harper .. they're great, and they too are young. THEY will be in the hall of fame. It's obvious. Manny? I can only hope for it at this point. Ya'll may not believe me, but I root for him as hard as the next guy or girl. I promise you I do. I watch his every move. Great? Not yet he isn't.

          Great? We throw this word around much, much too easily.

        • Boog -

          1) At least half of the things that you've mentioned cannot be achieved until someone is near or at retirement age! Manny is 24.

          2) Mike Trout is a once-in-a-generation (or perhaps even rarer) talent. It's not fair to compare anyone else playing now to him. If Trout stays healthy and playing near his current level over the long haul, he'll be in the conversation for best baseball player EVER. As for Harper, he has finished in the top 10 in the MVP race once. You can give it more credit because he won if you like, but that's the answer to your question.

          3) As to your objections to his body language and other silly things, I believe you know how I feel about that.

          Manny has been great.

        • Stacey,

          1. Let's nit pick and call Manny 25, since he will be in less than a month.
          2. You also mentioned a generational and "cultural" divide. Age I'll give you.. I've given it away, but how do you know what culture I'm from?
          3. I whole heartedly disagree with you when you lump body language with the word "silly" .. body language can be very telling.
          4. As far as being 'silly', yes, I can be. If you had been reading this site since it's inception, you'd know that 55% of what I say, is said tongue in cheek, with the intent of providing levity or silliness. At least I try the levity thing although I'm not sure I get there. I'm a comedian in my own mind.
          5. Why picking on Manny?. I do so only because I hold his talent in such high regard. I expect greatness from him. But let me add this, if Adam Jones had 3/4 the physical gifts of Manny Machado, we'd be calling him Mike Trout.
          6. Picking on Manny again .... people here talk of how hard Manny has worked to get here. I'm not so sure. 1st off, baseball is NOT work. Maybe traveling, putting up with the press etc is work. But baseball is a little boys game. Ask 90% of the men that follow the game, and they'd tell you they'd do it for meal money. Manny got where he is because the universe placed a hand on his head at birth, and gave him his other-worldly talent. He barely had a cup of coffee in the minor leagues.
          7. Specifically the throw last night ... OK ... last week, a piece was done on this site as to how our 3rd string catcher made a terrible throw to 3rd that cost us 2 runs and possibly the game. Nobody mentioned boo about last nights off balance, and in my opinion, "hotdog" if not hurried throw by our "superstar". Why is that? Why chastise our AAA catcher ... wait AA catcher .. and not our best player for basically the same offense? Think about it.

          8. Most important ... It's great to have a female (I assume because of the name) in this forum! I truly am sorry if I offended you.

          9. EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY .... Lets GO O's !!!!

        • Boog -

          I guess I missed all of the comments saying that Francisco Pena made that error because he's a lazy showboat. If they had, I'd take the same umbrage that I do when people claim every mistake by Manny is because he doesn't care enough. There was an article about that play (well, partial article, it was one of several topics) because it was a key moment in the outcome of the game, not because people like to pretend that Manny is perfect.

          As you said yourself, SubZero made a good argument when he pointed out that physical errors happen to everyone, even the best players around. But when Manny makes one, people (not just you, I see it around the internet) are always so tired of him being a showboating hot dog. When J.J. Hardy makes a poor throw we all like to complain about it, but no one ever talks about how his head is in the clouds.

          I think that fielding percentage is a very incomplete way to judge defense, but since you said he could never compare to Brooks in an earlier comment, let's check it out. Over his career Brooks had a .971 fielding percentage and so far in his career Manny's is .968. To me .003 is pretty darn comparable. Man that Brooksie must have been one fundamentally unsound so and so!

        • Boog-- I'm going to hone in on point #6, because I think you're way off the mark on that one.

          It's absurd, and frankly insulting to professional athletes, to say that playing major league baseball isn't work. Of course it's work. It's a tremendous amount of work. Every day, these players need to keep themselves in shape, keep working out, keep perfecting their skills, keep grinding it out on the field for 162 games a year while traveling thousands of miles, all while trying to win games against players who are doing all those same things, and all while performing their jobs in front of millions of fans who will criticize them or call for their heads for every mistake. It's an incredibly intense, high-pressure job.

          Nobody just stumbles their way into the major leagues like you're implying Manny did. Every player who makes it that far does so because their hard work, and their talent, got them there.

          Just because baseball is a game that some people play for fun doesn't mean it's not work. That's like saying, "I sometimes grow vegetables in a garden outside my house as a hobby. That means that being a farmer isn't real work."

          Try telling a professional baseball player, or any athlete, that what they do isn't work. I think they would very much beg to differ.

        • You've definitely got a point Paul. If I had only worked as hard as Manny, I could've been a major leaguer. Darn!
          Please please, I'm joking. I know baseball is hard work. I'd rather be spreading asphalt, or collecting trash, or cleaning highway rest stops

          OK... but I've got a job that I've got to get back to! (irony .. get it?)

        • Stacy, show me where I EVER used the word 'lazy' alongside Machado. Showboat, hotdog, immature ... but never lazy. And I never said he doesn't work or care either.

          All I said today, was that he should have planted his feet on that throw that be BLEW. He normally makes the showboat throw, but not last night he didn't.

          That is all I ever said.

          THIS SITE commented on Pena's throw. So I asked why Manny's isn't critiqued?

          As far as the reason I never commented on Pena, it's simply because it wasn't a showboat throw. He threw while on balance and off the right foot! Everybody makes mistakes. It happens. The reason I commented on Manny's throw is because it was completely avoidable Some mistakes are compounded in my opinion, due to a lack of respect to the fundamentals of the game. I assure you, there has NEVER been a baseball coach in the history of baseball, that coached a player to the throw ball off the wrong foot while being off balance while still having MORE than enough time to set their feet. I never said lazy either. Please don't put words in my mouth.

          And what the heck has JJ got to do with this?

  • Just remember all, we have opinions. Not always gonna agree. Just keep it to the game and not make it personal. This forum has been different than a lot of the other ones out there because we don't bitch at each other. Let's keep it that way. (Or I'll make sure we keep it that way.) We all can disagree and move on. Nothing to see here.

    • I'm sorry Dan ... please don't revoke my membership .. I live for this site!

    • Sorry Dan :(

  • No worries. Just don't want to lose great commenters due to personal barbs. I like the interaction tho.

  • And he dropped the ball! The throw was on the money and Cutch was out. But then he dropped the ball to cry about a bruise. Its like he doesn't even care about the team. All me, me, me.

    Back in the day when men were men, and respect had respect, and ric flair was the nature boy, and teddy roosevelt took a bullet and kept talking, lingering and loitering on lawns was a sure sign of red commie infiltration.

• I happen to agree with Blog Robinson. This fame has gone to Manny's head and it is hurting his play. When a player is told he is a super star it effects their play like not running balls out. With all that being said I still hope the Orioles someway somehow resign him

  • sorry Boog Robinson dann auto correct meant Boog

  • I think it's awfully presumptuous to claim to know what's going on inside a player's head just by watching him play.

    To suggest that "the fame has gone to Manny's head" is, to me, off base. Manny was famous last year, too. And the year before that. And he was very, very good those years. You don't stop being good at baseball just because you become famous.

    I'm also confused about your comment that when a player is told he is a superstar, he stops running balls out. I'm not sure where that's coming from, but it doesn't seem based on any evidence.

    • Paul ... If you had to pick ... Would you argue that a fringe major league player struggling to stay in the bigs would be more/less or just as likely to run balls out? (but you're right ... it IS presumptuous)

• I don't like his hitting approach at all it has changed and I have seen it in tv with not running balls out. You never see Jones dogging it.

  • I do think there has been some lack in concentration on Manny's part at times. It has been something addressed in internally in the past. I also imagine there is some frustration his part this year and that can bleed over at times. Again, he's 24. And a tremendous talent. I think there is some picking nits. But he'll be the first to tell you he wants to be the best at all times.

  • Ditto that Wade

• I align with The comments about Manny's lack of concentration, but to put a positive spin in it, if he misses any games I hope he comes back like Adam Jones has come back from his injury. Adam's offense has picked up over the past week.

• Now that everyone has finished shouting at one another, a perspective; Machado has always been a headcase. He has previously displayed all the self control of Charlie Sheen on weekend bender in Thailand. He seemed to be turning the corner and the other cheek after the Boston headhunting incident, although the now legendary F bomb interview may have tempered that a bit. Time will tell. I do think it is obvious that pressure, rather than fame, is getting to him because if look past all the hype and just the numbers you will see this;

  Manny Machado is not a superstar.

  Everyone is talking about the 400 million its supposedly going to take to retain him, I ask you to show me the season where Machado proved himself worthy of that number. As gifted as he may be, Machado's career offensive performance has no business in the same discussion as Harper, let alone Trout. If I were an MLB owner and Manny dropped his current body of work down on my desk and said give me 300 million, I'd laugh and tell him to get the hell out of my office. He's been good, not great. Magnificent defensively, but so was Rey Ordonez. He has the potential, but so have plenty of others. Before we call him Brooks Robinson, he needs to prove he isn't Eric Chavez. Home Runs make resumes look awful pretty. This is why Machado, struggling to put the ball in play, now takes swings that nearly kill 12 people in the front row.

  • I NEVER SHOUTED.LOL We need to agree to disagree at time sure don't want to tick off the leader DANO

  • $300 laughable? As much as I agree with what you've said I dunno 'Stache ... let's not forget how much did Crush got.

    • Crush became Mark McGwire with country gravy in 2013, putting up Ruthian numbers. He hit more dingers than anyone on Earth between 2013 and 2015. Where is that season on Machado's books?

      • As usual .. you DO have a point.

      • Chris Davis 2013-15 (age 27-29) WAR = 13.5
        Manny Machado 2013-15 (age 20 -22) WAR = 16.2

        Manny will be paid top 5 player type money. And it will be to the detriment of the organization if that money is not coming from the Os.

• I too see some of the things about Manny mentioned above but could it be the rest of the league is or has adjusted to his game, and that he's merely trying to figure out how to re-adjust?

  • This again is an overall statement to all and not just an answer to one commenter. The guy is 24. I'm not sure what he'll become: A Hall of Famer or just a very good player. But his body of work has been exceptionally impressive for a guy his age who has already overcome 2 knee surgeries since becoming a big leaguer. I guess my point is that whoever shells out $300-$400 million will be doing so for what they think will happen. Normally in free agency, guy's get paid for what they did previously. But he's not 28 or 30 or 32 when the eventual windfall occurs. He'll be 26, which is generally viewed as entering baseball prime. To paraphrase Boog paraphrasing a movie. He'll get paid, Ray. He'll get paid.