Orioles’ attendance falls by more than 250,000 in 2019; Elias vows fans will be ‘back in a big way’

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• Tank Elias is right .. the fans will come back when they start winning again. But I'm afraid that by then, it may be too late.

  I know that Mr. Dubroff has often claimed that MLB would never give up on it's prize jewel of a stadium, but frankly, money talks and the O's could walk if things don't change drastically in the stands. With each passing loss in litigation with the Nats in the MASN battlefield, things grow bleaker. The TV money won't keep supporting Crush Davis' contract forever. To me, Nashville looms larger with each sub 10,000 attendance.

  So, Mr. Elias, let's try and win a few games next year 'eh? Pretty please?

  • Boog I share your concerns and have stated such. A rebuild is nice but can it outlast an apathy/attendence issue? Mr Elias as far as this rebuild goes I don't want to tell you what to do BUT you might want to pick up the pace of competitiveness a little. Oh and maybe a little political jumps start for downtown Baltimore. Trump's comments were hurtful but not totally wrong. The city and the O's seem to be floundering together.

  • Agree!

  • No Booster, I don't root for the Orioles to lose but when they do which has been very often the last 2 years, unlike you, I see the silver lining in our draft position which is HUGE TO THE REBUILD WHICH WE ARE CURRENTLY IN!!! Like I stated to you before I CAN PUT MY OWN SELFAGE WANTS FOR THE ORIOLES ASIDE FOR WHAT'S BEST FOR THE TEAM AND ACCEPT THE REBUILD FOR WHAT IT IS!!! SOMETHING THAT WILL BUILD A CONTENDER FOR THE BIG PICTURE AND FOR THE FUTURE!!! Something you just apparently don't understand or comprehend!!!

• How about the Orioles move to Nashville, the Rays move to Baltimore, and all is right with the world? We get an already talent elite organization, new ownership, and no more endless, boring Chris Davis contract rants. One can dream.....

  • That's just wrong Chico.

  • Wrong but I like it.

  • Wrong but right

• That isn't a dream, that would be a nightmare, I have been a life-time O's fan from Ohio, I am not a Raven's fan, even though they were the "Browns", I was a Colts fan, that is the Baltimore team, I WOULD NOT be a Rays fan if they came to Baltimore, & I'm guessing I would not be an O's fan if they moved to Nashville...go O's...

  • I'm with you on this one CalsPals. Although I believe my loyalty would travel with the franchise were they ever to leave. Let's all just hope that the team stays where they are for a very long time. I like the city .. I love the park .. I like the history and colors. And how can you not love the Cartoon Bird?

  • I'd like it only if the Orioles became the Sounds(Nashville) and the Rays became the Orioles. Keeping the Orioles name in Baltimore is mandatory

• No way the Orioles will leave Baltimore, but to think that a couple winning seasons and magically 2.5 million people will start showing up is naive. An entire generation has grown up watching Orioles win nothing. The Showalter era produced a couple exciting seasons, but we saw how quickly fans left. Orioles fans will return, but will take a generation of winning not a couple good seasons. Loyalty is earned!!! It took I imagine most of use growing up with a winner, but (1) Why not? season.

  • Well, I for one would love to test your theory by simply having a couple of winning seasons.

• Unfortunately, Orioles attendance has been battered by a one-two punch over the past few years - a terrible product on the field, coinciding with growing fear in the suburbs about crime in Baltimore City.

  Its going to be a quite a challenge for Elias to turn the Orioles into a competitive team on the field in the next few years. And perhaps a bigger challenge may be changing the perceptions of many fans in the suburbs about the safety of journeying to downtown Baltimore.

  • I don't buy that fear of crime theory. Now maybe if they were still playing in Memorial it would hold some water .. but really ... downtown fosters none of that for me.

    • The orioles are not moving and this attendance drop was completely expected. Guys, ticket sales don’t pay players salary anyway. This is not the primary stream of revenue for a big league team. The Angelos’ aren’t hurting financially. Maybe you all have PTSD from the colts or something but it ain’t happening. We’ll be in Baltimore. And anyone up there suggesting Elias should speed up the rebuild so we don’t move doesn’t have a clue.

      “Speeding up” a rebuild (if that’s even possible) would cost significant dollars. Should those big contract not work out(as they often do) we’d be left with nothing but an oversized payroll and a bad team. You want to talk about moving, that’s the recipe for the Orioles to move.

      Everyone needs to relax; let them build the organization the correct way. We need a steady pipeline of talent coming in. Championships are not won in free agency anymore. The talent needs to come from within.

      • Ummmm ... 250,000 in lost ticket/beer/cotton candy sales would have certainly paid Crush's contract this year.

        Nobody is suggesting that speeding up the rebuild will save this team from financial ruin, but the MASN cash cow is drying up fast. In order to maintain the long term stability of this franchise in this small to medium size market ... you can bet your sweet bippie that attendance counts. Those who think not, haven't run the numbers.

        There's going to be a new owner of this club in the not so distant future. And convincing that owner that this team needs to stay, does not include seeing empty premium seats behind home plate every night.

        To say there's no way the O's could ever leave town is putting your head in the sand.

        • Those 225K seats were easily compensated for by the shedding of Gausman, Oday’s, and Schoop Salary from our payroll tab. If you don’t think the Orioles were a wildly profitable organization this year, Boog your head might be buried too deep in the sand. There’s no realistic attendance drop you can see that wouldn’t be compensated by the shedding of salaries. A shedding of payroll that in all likelihood will continue again next year.

        • If we were running out 150+ million dollar payrolls like we were when we were playing in October you might have a point here. But on a 75MM payroll or lower; ownership is still making a healthy profit. They knew this attendance drop was coming. We at least gave the fans hope to buy season tickets last season. This year it was crystal crazy what the Birds were going to be putting on the field. I’d say you’ll probably see another small decrease next season in attendance, if I were betting. But that’s not going to be a gigantic concern for the guys up top right now.

    • Just to be clear, I am not saying that it is actually more dangerous to go to Camden Yards than it was 20 years ago when Orioles were near the top of MLB attendance ... I'm talking about perceptions, and I do think all the publicity about the surge in Baltimore's murder rate since the 2015 Freddie Gray riots has affected the perception of many suburbanites about the safety of going into downtown Baltimore.

      • That is correct. And Trump's bashing of the city didn't help. But was He right?

• The only reason I support this rebuild is there is no penalty for tanking-other than losing miserably. Now it looks like tanking is filtering into the NFL as well. I think MLB should study Premier League soccer structure where they have a secondary division for teams who’s record proves they don’t belong in the upper division. Make being in the lower division sting, teams there get less of TV revenue pie. Professional leagues should all demand that franchises at least attempt to compete each and every year.

  • Secondary division? Bwaahaaaahahaaahahaha

    Try selling that to the players union.

  • Agree, besides it is a ridiculous idea, I wouldn’t take any ideas from soccer, talk about a boring sport....hurry up & wait...go O’s...

  • Well boog your the official Tanking complainer, enlighten us with your solution to this tanking problem. And Cal please do entertain with some of your sound ideas as well.

    • My solution to tanking? Simple enough .. put the best team on the field that you can.

      • We did that Booster and had 14 years of losing. You don't seem to recognize that!!!

        • Booster 'eh? Clever. How old are you?

        • Not sure where you're getting 14 years of losing...go O's...

  • I’m sure you have one or two in a lifetime

  • NFL teams have been tanking well before the MLB joined in. The difference though is that in the NFL the payoff for tanking is higher.

  • Grow up Mike...go O’s...

  • That’s my point boog - there is no incentive to putting the best team out there that you can. There is no penalty for tanking other that the losing

    • Incentives to win? Really?

      Besides lost attendance? What abut "This is a sport, and in sports, the goal is to win as best you can"? Frankly, if the mere fact that you owe it to the paying people in the stands to try, isn't 'incentive enough' , then I guess we really do have a problem with the latter generation(s).

      Does the word "scruples" (or lack of) not mean anything anymore?

  • Boog, you hit it right on the head, apparently we’re getting too old...go O’s...

  • Hmmm lost attendance-did that stop us from tanking? Boog do you drink the orange cool-aid and think the FO really is trying to help the Big league club win the best it can right now? The big league club is an afterthought to this front office. As I said I support this rebuild simply because there is no penalty for throwing in the towel. Boog and CalsPals - the problem is not generational, I’m probably older than both of you. Boog whines about tanking, I suggested a possible way to deal with the problem of tanking and you guys jump in criticizing with both feet. So I repeat come on big boys, come up with your solution to tanking and quit crying about it. Maybe the problem is generational - you guys never progressed past toddler reasoning.

    • So we were supposed to take your 2nd division suggestion seriously? That's your suggestion to eliminating tanking? Genius. Pure genius.

  • Oh booger - I am still waiting for you to come up with an original idea. I bet there was a time when you had one but gosh it died of loneliness. All blowhards like you do is whine and complain and criticize. It’s beyond your little mind to offer anything of substance

    • Now you're resorting to name calling and insults? Evidently you'r not old enough to refrain from name calling.

      My idea regarding fixing tanking was a simple one ... don't. QUIT TANKING. That's my solution to it. Put your best team out there I said. What didn't I say clearly enough? Maybe that's not an original idea, but it's what I think is the right thing to do. As witnessed by the Yankees, Dodgers, Sox and Cardinals to name a few .. you don't have to have the very top picks to build a sustainable farm system. It's a cheap shortcut, that when you think about it, is the exact opposite of building a 'sustainable' system.

      Frankly, your "original idea" of the 2nd division to eliminate it was a bit silly. You weren't serious were you? Did you really expect anybody to take it seriously? If you truly did/do .. consider that a viable option ... I apologize. I thought it was a joke.

  • Still waiting for an original idea from you booger. I don’t think the Tigers or Orioles or any team cares when you whine QUIT TANKING. MLB should be concerned that some of its teams are not even trying, yet they still line up to get their share of the revenue pie. Your whining about it is the joke, wait that’s not true it’s pathetic and most importantly ineffectual.

    • Ya got me there sir. Let's propose the 2nd division solution and see where it gets us.

  • Talk about toddler reasoning, your the name callers, Boog was spot on when he the union wouldn’t allow it...end of the second tier idea...go O’s...

  • Just when we were making progress cals balls chimes in. Some people seek solutions and some people seek ways to not even try. Quitting courses through your veins.

• I'm not in the Baltimore area so you guys know a lot more than me but, for the moment, I'm going to stay optimistic. When the players come, the fans will come. I truly enjoyed following Bowie and Delmarva this season. When the kids and kids-in-heart want to wear their Hays or Mountcastle or Rodriguez or Rutschman jerseys, everything will be better. We'll see if the Angelos boys agree.

  On a personal basis, for me, no more Baltimore Orioles, no more baseball. I will not follow them anywhere else.

• So the O's drew 1.3 Mil this year with A MINOR LEAGUE TEAM. How many minor league club owners would like to draw half that many? How many of these players on this years team were making more than the minimum? By my count (and I'm sure some will try to correct me) the O's, on their 25 man roster have 2 pitchers (Means and Harvey) and 6 position players (Mancini, Villiers, Hays, Santander, Alberto, and Severino). Which means they have 17 openings for 2020.

  • Norm, Davis, Cobb, Trumbo, Villar, Givens and Bundy are the only players on the club making much more than the minimum.

    Next year, Mancini, Bleier, Castro, Alberto, Givens, Villar and Bundy are all eligible for arbitration and in line for raises.

• Hate all the talk about moving. It’s heartbreaking every time it comes it. It’s obvious that attendance is down as they team is not winning. No different for losing teams in any sport. At the end of the day didn’t we get exactly what we wanted for this season – Improvement from last year? Look at the poor Angles fans, they have the best player in the game, yet are no closer to winning either. I’m going to stay optimist that things improve next season as the process continues. Win or lose, I’ll still be following the team. Looking forward to the parade in 2022!

• Moving is a real possibility. But not because a attendance. It is about MASN, inheritence taxes, sons will not be approved by teams.
  Hint that Elias contract length has never been announced. Though less of a connection, neither has Hyde's.
  Also, intetesting that Rich has not commented.

  • Oh, and lease expires after 2021

  • Commented on Elias’ or Hyde’s contract length? That’s because I’d just be guessing.

    I’ve answered in comments many times that I don’t think the team will move.

    Oriole Park is a gem in the northeast corridor, and MLB wouldn’t allow it to be empty.

• One observation I would have is that the Angelos’s need to communicate with the public more often. Realize that Peter has been ill, but even before that, he rarely communicated with the fan base. Not sure about the media, Rich can answer that question. Outside of the Elias press conference, their presence is hidden. They don’t need to be Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban, but there should be more transparency. One example-when Buck and Dan were fired, it was put out in a press release. When Steve Bisciotti fired Brian Billick , he went before the cameras and explained his reasoning. And was sweating worse than Freddy Garcia

  • For some reason, NFL owners generally take a more hands-on approach to hiring and firing coaches than MLB owners do to hiring and firing managers.

  • The great Vince Bagli, who I believe recently turned 92, often lamented the fact that Bob Irsay never bought a place in Baltimore and never put down roots in the community. Not saying it would have prevented the Colts from eventually leaving, but may have made the relationship between ownership and fans less toxic. Irsay had an excuse, he was from Skokie Illinois. The Angelos’s are from Baltimore, they know the community and the fan base. One example-Chris Davis. That contract was negotiated by Peter Angelos and Scott Boras. Elias himself mentioned the contract in his pre game comments. If ownership is preventing Elias from releasing Davis, the least they can do is take responsibility for his still being on the team, so people on this site and others stop screaming at Elias to release him. Then they can go back in hiding

• I wish Elias would stop talking about it’s not going to get better next year stuff. Even if it’s true.

  • The ultimate goal is to develop a perennial playoff contender which can be sustainable for a long period of time. Best way to do that is through the farm system and player development. If you spend 200 million or so on Gerrit Cole or Anthony Rendon, you are probably still looking at a losing team ( see Manny Machado Padres). The first priority is the continued development of talent in the system. If the players on the MLB roster win more games than expected great. But ultimately it is more important to develop the talent pipeline that Elias mentioned at his initial press conference

• This city wouldn't buy tickets to see this team when it was winning. And I'm not talking about the 2012-2016 era, I'm talking about the when the Orioles couldn't sell out the last two games of the 1970 World Series (that's 100% true, look it up). Throw in an out of control crime issue and godawful baseball and we can't be surprised they aren't packing 'em in to see the immortal David Hess.

  I'm on record saying I hate the current status quo that, in order to build a winner, you have to subject the fanbase to multiple 100 loss s**t shows. It's lazy and shows a complete contempt for the paying customer, like "screw you, you'll be back eventually". There has to be another way, but the current crop of risk averse, CEO whiz kids are afraid to try it. I expect to see some growth starting next year. I'm not saying playoffs, that's ridiculous, but if Mr. Elias thinks I'm going to keep forking over dollars for 2 more years of ineptitude he is mistaken.

  • Say what you will about the New York Yankees and their fanbase, those people demand excellence and that franchise delivers it. Why can't the Orioles?

    In what other industry can you tell the customers "talk to the hand" like pro sports? Could Chick Fil A start selling cold, burnt gizzards on moldy bread for 2 years and tell the consumer "in 3 years our Chicken sandwiches will be good again, see you then"? What they fail to realize is that baseball, more so than any other sports, has to get em while they are young. People don't become baseball fans at 28. They learn to love the game between 4 and 10 years old. And all of those fans they are depending on filling the stadium in 20 years, they are all hanging up Max Scherzer posters in their room.

    • Awesome BanMo ....

      This my friends, is the smartest and well spoken O's Fan in the world. (or at least this site)

      Been saying it for 4 years now. BanMo for GM!!

  • The Yankees had a down period in the late 80’s early 90’s. They did pretty much what the Orioles are doing now. Jeter, Pettit, Rivera , Posada, and Bernie Williams. So they rebuilt by developing their farm system. Once they got good, then they started buying players

    • That's right ClayDal. That was the plan in NY and it worked to perfection. You seem to understand what REBUILD MEANS!!! SOMETHING BOO-STER CAN'T WRAP HIS HEAD AROUND!!!

      • OhThe Yankees were bad for a decade because The Boss meddled and ran everyone out of town. Seriously, you cant compare a down period 30 years ago to this. Again, I understand a rebuild. But I can't sit and watch a half decade of bartenders and landscapers striking out while Elias figures it out.

      • For the record ... since 1990 .. the Yankees only topped 90 losses twice. They lost 95 in 1990, and they lost 91 in 1991. They never came close to losing 100. Hardly comparable to what the O's are doing.

        Starting in 1993 through today ... they never had a losing season. Not one. Imagine that? Over a quarther century of winning seasons. So please explain to how in the world they managed to keep that farm system so stocked without super high draft picks?

        And if you look at Boston this century .. the same can be said of that organization. They stock their system without drafting at the top of each round as well.

        Good organizations don't need to tank. Rebuild Tank

        • Partly agree, Bostons farm system currently (I believe) not rated very well...Yankees ALWAYS seem to make the huge trade and/or free agent splurge, money is no issue for them like many others...go O's...

  • The Yankees were bad for a decade. This is year 2 for the Orioles. Although it does seem longer

    • But Clay ... the Yankees were not TRYING to be bad....they just were.

  • The Yankees went 14 seasons without making the playoffs. They had a winning record in most of those seasons but the bottom line was no postseason. The key is HOW the Yankees became successful-through player development. The Boss was always able to buy players, but his teams built a solid foundation from the ground up. It took several years with Gene Michael and Buck Showalter. The Red Sox finished last 3 times this decade( along with 2 World Series). Their core-Betts, Bogarts, Devers, Bradley Jr, Benitendi came through the farm system. They were able to trade for Sale because they had Kopech and Moncada. The Orioles are trying to establish a solid foundation through player development. This is only the first year. Going to take a few years to put the pieces in place. Elias is a smart guy, but he inherited a mess. Let’s give it a few years

    • Clay, we all believe in player development. Absolutely. Building the farm is priority number one. We agree on that.

      I do take exception to the "mess" Elias inherited. It may not be as bad as you think. Hays, Santander, Mountcastle, Cisco, Y Diaz and even Mancini and 100% of the supposedly stud pitchers down in the lower minor leagues were here before he got the job. Baumann, Lowther, Pop, Grayson Rodriguez, DL Hall, Akin, Hunter Harvey ... not a bad inheritance I'd say.

      Now Mr. Elias did supposedly draft a couple of gems in Rutschman & Gunnar Henderson .. and hopefully he'll keep that up. Will ANY of these players be top flight players? Who knows? But he powers in the know seem to think there are some quality MLB'ers in there.

      So to say the system didn't have any talent waiting for him isn't quite true.

  • Just a reminder, many of the yrs the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs we didn’t have the wildcard or extended # of teams for the playoffs...go O’s...

  • If you look at the 3 dominant teams of the 1990’s ( Yankees, Indians, Braves) they all rebuilt in the same manner. They built a solid farm system, made smart trades, and didn’t mortgage the future for a quick fix. They all took their lumps along the way, but they were all able to maintain a sustained period of success. Elias inherited a 47-115 team in November last year. In order to improve the won-loss record, they must improve the talent level in the organization. The Yankees, Indians, and Braves did not build those teams overnight. When the talent level improves, it will be reflected in the won-loss record. Elias can’t just snap his fingers and talented players magically appear. It is a process

  • Elias inherited a mess at the major league level. There are some definite prospects in the minors. However they are not going to rush them. The Orioles are not deliberately losing this year-they just don’t have the talent.

• I’m just catching up to this debate, but for the record I completely agree with Boog and BanMo. And comparing the O’s plight with the Yankees is hilarious - at least it gave me a good laugh. The O’s are years away from competing, and when they need to pay their players to stay they won’t be able to because attendance will not come back. Tanking is a slippery slope and we are sliding fast. Damn shame for such a once proud f

• Baltimore City is not a nice place to be right now... they may have to move the jewel .

• What would help would be for the Player's Association to go after a salary floor in the next contract. As someone pointed out, if the lion's share of revenue comes from broadcasting teams don't have to worry nearly as much about putting a competitive product on the field. My concern with the Orioles going fully into demolition mode is that in the four years or so it takes to get back to .500 baseball they will have eroded the fan base, made the team undesirable for future free agents, and instilled a culture of losing. What is never said is when the team will stop shedding veteran players and/or when will they bring in veterans who aren't bargain basement castoffs? When the O's are eventually sold there's no guarantee it will be to a new owner with deep pockets. Then you end up with a Marlins situation where essentially the fans underwrite the purchase of the team by suffering through years of mediocrity. I think the idea that MLB would care about Camden Yards being empty is a bit of a stretch. They would throw the O's a sop with a dozen Nationals games, the city would get a AAA franchise, and life would go on after the departure for Nashville.

  • The salary floor is an interesting concept. MLB should be concerned that some big league teams are not even trying to win.

  • Salary floor is a great idea. But if the owners agree to a salary floor, they are going to want the players to accept a salary cap. So it’s not going to happen

  • I get your point Clay. And I agree the players union is strong. It’s been a long time since Marvin Miller beat the snot out of the owners. But there comes a time when something needs to get done. I think it’s time that both sides get together and practice the art of negotiations. We should not just reject ideas because a special interest group may oppose them. That’s self induced paralysis. Propose and negotiate.

  • The owners have proposed a salary cap in the past. In 1994. The result was a strike and no World Series that year. Best you can hope for is a luxury tax with punitive penalties for teams that exceed them. Unfortunately, the big money teams are usually willing (and able) to pay the fine. See Boston Red Sox last year

  • I get that Clay - and the very last thing I would want is a strike. But past failure does not automatically guarantee failure in the future. The landscape constantly changes.

  • Another thought about a salary floor-what if you can’t get players to come here? The old Syd Thrift “Confederate money”. In that case , you end up overpaying someone just to get to the minimum. Would that necessarily make a team better? And how would you deal with the trade deadline. If a player like Manny Machado, making 16 million dollars in his last year before free agency is traded, would you have to get back 16 million in salaries from the Dodgers instead of prospects. You would wind up like the NBA , where they have a 6 for 3 trade , and 7 of the 9 players are released before going to their new teams