Diner Question: Who are the most underrated players in Orioles history?

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• Jeepers Rich, the first name to pop into my head was Bobby Grich. But then I read your 4th paragraph.

  I admit being prejudiced to the players of my youth, and maybe this man is more respected by John Q Public than I think he is, but given his .228 BA and only having 20 Home Runs in over 5700 at bats, I have to nominate Mark Belanger.

  Defensively speaking, outside of Ozzie Smith, I can't think of a SS I'd rather have playing the 6 hole than the Blade. And if you'd like to talk about the art of bunting, this guy was at the top of the list.

  Yup Mark Belanger is my choice by the slightest of margins over Paul Blair.

  • Blair was my starting center fielder, so I
    don’t think he was underrated, Ken.

  • Two players i loved to watch play or hit: Outfielder/1st baseman, all about hustle and hard play, getting the key hits and playing the wall, I present Joe Orsulak. I never hear his name any more, like dust in the wind. The other player may not be quite so underrated and had his best years playing elsewhere, he was slower than a turtle, just faster than a snail and hardly a fielder anymore, but when he came to bat as the DH, you always had to watch, very clutch, I present Harold Baines.

  • Csquare, Orsulak a former coworker of mine at Comcast was certainly underrated, but Baines? He’s in the Hall of Fame.

  • Bordick!!

• Rafael Palmeiro, Mark Belanger, Boog Powell & Nick Markakis, thx & go O’s...

  • CP….for once, I've gotta disagree with you on a couple of these.

    Raffy Palmeiro? I'm thinking he'd have be classified as one of the most overrated, drug induced numbers and all. And despite being a blight on the franchise, you'll find kazillions of Palmiero defenders that will maintain to this day that he is the best 1st baseman in team history. Underrated? Hmmm.

    And how can Boog Powell be underrated when he won a league MVP, was a cornerstone on the best team in franchise history, all the while being practically immortalized with that BBQ stand on Eutaw? Might as well have given him a his statue!

  • You’re allowed to, it’s opinion & you do it respectfully, although quite a few others have also listed their names...go O’s...

• Gary Roenicke, Mike Cuellar, Kenny Singleton, Dick Hall

  • I like the Roenicke & Cuellar picks, although with a Cy Young to his credit, and being a member of that 4 man 20 game staff, I'm not sure Cuellar is so underrated.

  • Fairway, Singleton was my DH on the all-time Orioles team.

  • C: Gus Tremendous (Triandos) starter for 8 seasons , 3 time AL all star as an Oriole, 30 homer runs hit in Memorial Stadium when it had bushes and no fence, street named after him in Timonium, but often forgotten when Orioles Best are discussed. 2nd choice Andy Etchebarren, two time all star, caught every inning of 1966 World Series Championship, should be in Orioles HOF!
    1b: Boog Powell. As long as fans try to discuss Palmiero in the same sentence as Boog, I say Boog is underrated!
    2b: Rich Dauer, 7 year starter. Made whole infield better . Old fashioned contact hitter.
    3B : Melvin Mora, his 340 batting average in 2004 is still the tops for all Orioles. Twice an all star. More than 150 homers and 660 RBI as an Oriole.
    LF: Brady Anderson. I think he was Orioles best defensive left fielder ever. Three time all star. His fifty homers in 1996 will always be remembered but I like his all around season of 1999 even better
    CF: Mike Devereaux, very good on defense, always hustled
    RF: Nick Markakis, among the Orioles best for nearly a decade.
    Back Up OF: Curt Blefary , his combo of high on base percentage and slugging would be better appreciated in today’s game. Don Buford, top lead off man of his time, John Lowenstein 1.017 OPS in 1982, playoff game winning homer in 1979.
    SP: Dave McNally, 3 time all star. Led league in wins in 1970, 1.95 ERA in 68, twice started 40 games in the season .
    RP: Dick Hall, 65 wins and 60 saves as a reliever. Hardly ever walked a batter or gave up a homer. On WS teams in 66, 69, 70, and 71

  • Ogre, this is a thoughtful list. But, as others have noted, Powell was hardly underrated during and after his career. McNally has the second most wins in team history and won 20 games four straight seasons. He just wasn’t Jim Palmer.

• I would have to say Boog is my first choice, he was a major part of the team that started the Oriole Legacy in the 60's, and a big part of the World series teams on the 60's and 70's. Second is Belanger, same reasons as BRR above.

  • Tim, as others have noted, Boog is hardly overlooked. He was on my all-time team over Chris Davis, Jim Gentile and Rafael Palmeiro.

• My gosh how soon I forget?

  Rich is it too late to throw the names of Ryan Flaherty (talk about no respect) and one Matty Wieters into the discussion?

  • There’s never a bad day to mention Flash. Wieters was disrespected by some fans because he didn’t live to their expectations.

• Melvin Mora. He was a good ballplayer for the Orioles during not so glorious times. Also, he played 3B mostly, a position held also by Brooks, Cal, Decinces and most recently Machado, so it's easy to forget him. But he had some great years with the Orioles and worked his butt off. Melvin came from the poorest of small towns in Venezuela and he played professional soccer, where he excelled, and also did some boxing.

  • Thank you, Leo.

• Under-rated, I think of Dick Hall, Bob Boyd, Russ Snyder, Jerry Adair, Doug DeCinces, Dave McNally, Melvin Mora.

  • Some interesting names, Phil.

• First the Blade, man was amazing with the glove with him and Brooks on that left side that a lot got through. John Lowenstein man was so so until he came to us

  • Belanger was my second shortstop on my all-time team. Not sure that he qualifies as underrated, AZ.

• Dave’s Johnson, Elton Hendricks

  • Oh great. Now I’m stuck with the thought of Dave’s Johnson being underrated. Poor guy.

    Is Elton related to Elrod?

  • Is Dave’s related to Davey...go O’s...lol

  • Spellcheck is our enemy sometimes...go O’s...

• Love this subject, Rich.
  Let’s talk about VERY underrated. How about Don Buford and Davey Johnson? They were the “glue” guys who had their best seasons on Oriole teams that went to the World Series in 1969, 70, and 71. They weren’t underrated at that time as they both received All-Star recognition and MVP votes during those years, 3 of the 4 best W-L records in O’s history. I’m a bit tired of hearing about Brady Anderson, Brian Roberts and a few other “look at me” guys. These guys were winners.

  • Nellie, those are two excellent choices. But don’t disparage Brady and Brian, who were both on my all-time team. They were fine players.

    • Mike Devereaux is the first to come to my mind. Devo was better than Brady in center field. Wish the O's would have kept those 2 together a few more years, Brady was better in left then center

• BJ Surhoff

  • Wow, great one! I forgot about Surhoff!!

  • Awesome yep forgot him

• You should put together an all start team of ex-Orioles we traded away before they became great! The GM "I wish I hadn't done that!" team. We can start with Babe Ruth and Curt Schilling.........although Ruth may not count since he was pre-1954.

• Al Bumbry, John Lowenstein, Gary Roenicke and the Flare Dog.

  • If I knew who the Flare Dog was, I could respond.

    • I think Chris Sabo was known as the flare dog, but only played 1 year in Baltimore.

• Don Buford, Eddie Watt, Hal (Skinny) Brown

  • I'd also like to put in a plug for Tommy Davis. 3 1/2 years as a solid DH in the early 70s.

    • Thank you, Douglas. A good name to consider.

• Steve Finley, Mike Devereaux, and BJ Ryan

  • Thank you, gp.

• Bob Nieman
  .303/,392/.491
  3rd. 2nd. 6th. in Orioles history

  • That is an interesting one.

• Chris Hoiles. Excellent hitter. Very underrated defensively, people focused on the low CS percentage but the pitchers all had equal
  or better stats throwing to him than other supposed defensive specialists.

  • He was nearly my catcher on the all-time team, Kirby. Not so sure he was underrated.

• C- Chris Hoiles
  1B-No obvious choices, Eddie in the HOF, Boog an MVP, Raffy cheated, Jeff Conine by default
  2B-Dave Johnson-more famous as a manager, but when he was here as a player often forgotten
  SS-Mike Bordick-in 2001-02 when he got hurt, the Orioles season’s went south. Now if he would only not talk so much on MASN
  3B-Doug DeCinces-not easy replacing Brooks
  LF-Don Buford-narrowly over BJ Surhoff, great leadoff hitter on the 69-71 teams
  CF-Al Bumbry-ditto for Al. First Oriole to have 200 hits. Didn’t really appreciate him until the year he broke his leg and Larry Harlow and Carlos Lopez played CF
  RF-Nick Markakis-6years and they still haven’t replaced him
  DH-Tommy Davis-first full time Orioles DH
  SP-Mike Cuellar-compared to Palmer and McNally never got as much love nationally. Hurt by his poor English.
  RP-Pete Richert-great sideburns

  • Some good and thoughtful choices there.

  • Clay ...this is like the all-time 2nd string team …. how can we say any of these guys were underrated?

  • Depends on when they were underrated. Davey Johnson, Don Buford, and Mike Cuellar didn’t get the acclaim that their teammates got on the 1969-71 pennant winners. You had 3 Hall of Famers, an MVP, and 2 guys (Belanger and Blair) winning multiple Gold Gloves. Bordick beats out J J Hardy, because on the 1997 team, he was surrounded by All-Stars. Cal Ripken willingly moved to 3B to accommodate him. Bumbry was overshadowed by Murray and Palmer and others when he played. When he broke his leg in 1978, the Orioles playoff hopes went with him. He came back in 79 and they won the pennant and in 1980 when they won 100 games, he had 200 hits. Some could say Markakis was overrated since he never became the superstar that he was hyped to be. But they haven’t replaced him in 6 years. But trying to say who is overrated and underrated is subjective. Joe Rudi with Oakland was considered underrated. He was underrated for so long that Reggie Jackson called him baseball’s most overrated underrated player

    • Good points.. most all of them. You know your stuff. But like I said, these guys were all pretty danged good and even Decinces was appreciated in Bal'more. One guy I'll argue all day on your list is Cuellar. Sure he was 2nd fiddle to Palmer and McNally, but so was the rest of the league. And with that CY Award sitting on his mantle, somebody must have rated him very highly.

• Mike Boddicker, Dave McNally, Andy Etchebarren, and Nick Markakis are my underrated Orioles.

  • A few intriguing names there, Grand.

• I’ll second the vote for Harold Baines. I know he’s in the HOF but that’s largely due to his career in Chicago. Yet he had some of his best years in Baltimore and he was never treated like a HOF’er. I loved when he came up to bat in the clutch with men on base. He came through many a time. Underrated as an Oriole.

  • Tx, Baines wouldn’t be in the Hall had it not been fir his years in Baltimore. But Hall of Famers are not underrated players.

• SP: Milt Pappas, he's mostly remembered for being traded but he the first homegrown ace and pitched capably when he should have been learning how to throw in the minors
  RP: Randy Myers, forgotten but essential part of the late 90s playoff teams
  C: Chris Hoiles, 23.5 WAR in just under 900 games at catcher is really amazing, no catcher has that higher WAR in fewer games
  1B: Jim Gentile, would be much better remembered if not for Mantle and Marris chasing Ruth the same season he had his career year
  2B: Brian Roberts, none of the Oriole 2B seemed particularly underrated but Roberts would have attained legend status in Baltimore if his prime lined up with one of the playoff eras
  SS: Miguel Tejada, 2004-2006 were three of the best seasons put up by any Oriole shortstop
  3B: Doug DeCinces, could never fill the shoes of a legend but he's a Hall of Very Good player in his own right
  LF: Don Buford, this was the hardest position, Blefary and Surhoff each have a good case but BJ seems pretty well-remembered and Buford really is an underappreciated part of the 69-71 run
  CF: Brady Anderson, his defense is probably slightly overrated but he was a truly underrated leadoff hitter
  RF: Merv Rettenmund, while Roenicke and Lowenstein get most of the acclaim for parttime O's OFs, Merv was better than them
  DH: Eric Davis, hard to put a guy on the list who only played a year and a half in Baltimore but Davis was a beast during the '97 run and was even better during the otherwise largely disappointing '98 campaign
  Ult: Tim Hulett, 6.0 bWAR in 343 games is pretty great for a utility guy

  • A thoughtful list, Mike.

• Bumbry for sure and as for pitchers I think that Tippy Martinez was very underrated.

  • How about one of the original Baby Birds, Wes Stock? Over a 5 year period in the early 60's he won 17 games in relief including 1963 when he went 7-0.

    • Wes Stock, now that's an original one. Thank you.

  • Thank you, Leo.

• C - GUS TRIANDOS
  1B - LEE MAY
  2B- BRIAN ROBERTS
  SS - MIGUEL TEJADA
  3B - MELVIN MORA
  LF - BRADY ANDERSON
  CF- AL BUMBRY
  RF - CURT BLEFARY
  DH - ALBERT BELLE
  RHP - MIKE BODDICKER
  LHP - MIKE FLANAGAN
  CLOSER - RANDY MYERS

  • Some interesting choices there, too, frozen rope.

  • I agree with most of frozen ropes picks. But Albert Belle?????

  • Agree, Joey was a different guy, at least as an O he didn’t get caught w/a corked bat...go O’s...

• I guess I'm missing the boat with this question. I guess my problem is with the word "underrated". About 90 percent of the names listed above were solid players,hardly any of which I'd call underrated. My choice of Belanger included now that I think about it.

  To me … the underrated guys were the good players that we can barely remember anymore. Dan Ford anyone?

• How about Al Bumbry, Richie Coggins, and Don Buford?

  • Interesting outfield alignment, Maureco.

• The Big Bopper, Lee May, and a couple of the all-time top MLB pinch hitters, Terry Crowley and Jim Dwyer.

  • Those are some good ames, Birdman.

• OF-Joe Orsulak. Solid ballplayer here who had a nice little career.
  OF-Nate Mclouth. Integral piece on one of the most entertaining Oriole teams ever.
  OF- Larry Sheets. Plenty of pop in an awful era of O's baseball
  3B- Doug Decinces. Sandwiched between his magnificent predecessor and successor, Decinces often gets forgotten.
  SS- Mike Bordick. Remembered as Cal's replacement, and oft-maligned color man, Bordy could play.
  2B- Davey Johnson. Great keystone glove and timely hitting. The O's record in his time speaks for itself
  1B- Randy Milligan. Moose was the man.
  C- Caleb Joseph. Much derided for his lack of RBI's, Joseph was a good defender and delivered hits when you needed them.
  P- Scott Erickson. The late 90's team was REALLY good, and Erickson was everything you want in a number 2 starter
  Manager- Paul Richards. Known more for his player development, Richards led an Orioles team that wasn't all that talented to a second place finish in 1960 and a 95 win third place in 1961, when the AL East was dominated by a Yankee team that was apparently kinda good

  • Thank you, Bancells!

• Another good exercise, Rich, to keep us thinking about the game as we await it’s return. My list includes:
  Jerry Adair- 2nd base. Not much at the plate but a very slick fielder. He saved many runs defensively.
  Gary Roenicke and John Lowenstein- this rotation in the outfield put up great numbers in the late 70’s.
  Nick Markakis- led the league a couple of times in outfield assists and was solid at the plate for the O’s.
  Stu Miller- solid relief pitcher.
  Moe Drabowski- see Stu Miller above, plus was a great clubhouse presence.
  Al Bumbry- consistent hitter for several seasons, played solid CF and got some stolen bases along the way.

  • Thank you, Steve.

• The most productive LF in Orioles history. The three players who shared LF in 1982 combined for a .298/.392/.515 slash line with 43 HR and 120 RBI's. The names? Benny Ayala, John Lowenstein and Gary Roenicke. That's how good Earl moved his pieces back then, and none of these guy were considered superstars

  • That sure was a prolific platoon, and so much fun to watch. Earl got the best out each one of those guys.

• In the current century, Erik Bedard and Chris Tillman were significant contributors in the brutal AL East.

  • They were, Raymo.

• One player I haven't seen mentioned is Jackie Brandt. He didn't hit for much (~740-50 OPS) but he was the Orioles first regular centerfielder from 1960 through 1965. He was traded after the '65 season to the Phillies for Jack Baldschum, who was part of the package that brought Frank Robinson to Baltimore. The rest is history.

  • Jackie Brandt is a fascinating choice.

• I once saw Tommy Davis batting in the bottom of the ninth, two out, two on, two strikes, get badly fooled by a pitch outside. Realizing that he could neither stop his swing, nor reach the pitch, he let go of his bat mid-swing. It looked to be about six inches from his near hand when it ticked the ball foul. Next pitch: game winning double in the gap!
  What he or Tony Oliva could have done with good legs would have been quite a sight.
  I still believe it is the best at bat I have ever seen, and I too have been an Oriole fan since 1966.

• Clay Dal, You must have got your names all mixed up. I know you meant to say Palmer, not Bordick, talks toooooo much. Also, Let’s not forget, Hoiles, could not throw out a . How about Willie Maranda!

  • Never saw Willy Miranda so can’t comment on him. That’s why I didn’t include Jim Gentile , Gus Triandas or Milt Pappas. Hoiles was pretty much by default-Weiters was a first round pick, Dempsey a World Series MVP. Hoiles had some great years in the early to mid 90’s but was overshadowed by the Ripken hype. Palmer talks a lot too, but he is more informative and entertaining than Bordick. Bordy isn’t terrible as an analyst, just needs to cut back on his filibustering

• Dauer, Bumbry, Decinces,Hoiles, Dennis Martinez and Tippy Martinez.

  • My bad as i forgot Lee May!

• Another player I'd like to make a case for is reliever Mark Williamson. Over an 8 year career from 1987 through 1994 (all with the Orioles), he appeared in 365 games, seventh most in Orioles history, mostly as the prime setup man for closer Gregg Olson, compiling a lifetime ERA of 3.86.

• Defining “underrated” seems to avoid consensus. So, I’ll go with some of the players who gave me boyhood thrills but never seemed to make it to very many big lists, like those mentioned above.

  Steve Barber
  Stu Miller
  Dick Hall
  Pete Richert
  Jim Gentile
  Jerry Adair
  Jackie Brandt
  Russ Snyder

  Special footnote: I recently saw somebody’s list of the 100 best baseball announcers of all time, and neither Chuck Thompson nor (of course) Bill O’Donnell was on it. But I learned a lot of baseball in a very exciting way from those two guys. I’d consider CT a major oversight.

  Ahhh, memories.